#1: Jennifer Liu: Scaling Your PM Career & Career Resilience
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My name's Isabel, and this is your product thinking Toolbox.

Isabel: Jennifer Liu is a product executive with over 20 plus years of experience in small and large companies. She worked at Google for over 17 years, starting as an associate product manager and working her way to a senior director, managing multiple teams. Also, previously she was SVP and general manager at.

Lattice A multi-product, B2B platform supporting people management for thousands of organizations. Today she's here to talk about what being a people first leader means, and what the key principles to building great products look like. So thank you for coming on board, Jennifer, I'm so excited to chat with you.

Jenn: . I'm honored to be here. Thank you.

Isabel: I think the whirlwind of your career, your career trajectory, honestly, is very impressive. You've [00:01:00] had an engineering degree and now you are a product executive and a coach. So actually maybe for the audience, like how did you get here?

Tell me your story.

Jenn: Uh, well, as you mentioned, uh, it started with an engineering degree and my plan was originally to be an engineer for a while, perhaps do an m mba. That was kind of like the standard plan. And then I got into the associate product manager program at Google. Um, so this was back in 2004, a little while ago.

No . Okay. Um, so I guess in the old days, I started at the ground zero as an associate product manager. Um, and I had no idea what I was doing, if I'm honest. Uh, but I learned and I figured things out. Um, and it was just like, okay, whatever it takes to get things done. Um, and I was blessed with Google because there's such a breadth of areas to work on, so I really got to.

I got to work on internal systems to [00:02:00] mobile back when that was new over to, uh, shopping, um, and product listing ads of which I was able to grow a multi-billion dollar business from scratch. So that was, that was just a huge, um, just a kind of a huge moment in my career. Um, and from there I thought, well, it's time for me to, it's time for me to venture.

Um, it's not too late to learn. I'm not too old to to learn, and I really wanted to explore the startup world. So, um, I left Google a little while ago. Um, had since been in a couple startups. My last one being Lattice, uh, which is a people tech company. It was a great experience, loved it. Um, we had to make cuts, uh, like many are doing today, and that's where I thought, well, for me, What do I wanna do in my life?

Um, I don't know, a blink of an eye. I used to be the youngest and now I'm closer to midlife of [00:03:00] some way . And so I'm thinking, well, what do. What gives me meaning, what do I want to do? Um, and one thing I've always had my eye on is coaching. Um, it's the best part of the job is to see people grow and there's all these layoffs and reorgs and other stuff, but the best part, yeah.

With people for, at least for me. Um, and so that's where I'm, I'm early on. Um, but I'm exploring and starting to work with people on how I can help them. Um, because I feel like a lot of times, , everything seems linear on LinkedIn and social media, but in reality, and even in my own career, there are plenty of roadblocks, times of which I felt stuck, times of which I wanted to bang myself against a wall

Um, and it's those situations of which I was blessed to have people to support me, whether they're mentors or professional coaches, and it's time for me to give back. Um, so it's a, it's a new journey for me, but one that I'm really [00:04:00] excited to. ,

Isabel: let's start with, because APM in Google, that was your first product gig.

Jenn: Yep. I started from scratch as an associate product manager, so , intended for like more people without their prior experience. .

Isabel: But it is a competitive program, so definitely I think you gotta give yourself more credit for that, because I know so many people trying to get into becoming an APM at Google, because that's the first step in.

So what do you think you did well that got you in that field?

Jenn: I actually thought I bombed my interviews, and so it was a bit of a surprise, when I got in. Um, I think product management is a bit tricky, um mm-hmm. because it's, uh, it's, it's an ambiguous role. Depending upon the organization, it can also vary quite a bit depending on the area that you're working on, whether it's [00:05:00] b2b, b2c, or the particular field, whether it's FinTech or even people tech or shopping.

It can also vary quite a bit too. And therefore, interviews, it's not as straightforward as, okay, solve this problem. Um, like, here's a coding problem. There's a lot of, if I'm honest, a lot of subjectivity to it. So it's really. At the end of the day, connecting with folks. And the main advice I would give to lots of folks who, um, right now that I see are interviewing, are exploring opportunities would just be to be yourself and connect with folks like people.

It's people at the end of the day. Um, and for product managers, a lot of what you do is work with people. You work with various different folks, stakeholders, engineers, empathize, um, and, and work with people. ,

Isabel: that's such a good point because honestly, I. The way myself and many other product people got into product in general is through having powerful mentors and powerful [00:06:00] communities to support kind of that trajectory of, okay, this is how you grow and break into product.

So maybe a personal question for you who, given your long trajectory, who has been maybe the biggest mentor for you? Um, and d do you, what was the biggest thing that you took away from that relationship and those conversations?

Jenn: So that's actually a hard one cuz I've actually, uh, there's been multiple . Uh, I've had more managers than years of experience.

I've had multiple, I've been blessed also with multiple, very, like, wonderful friends, mentors, prior colleagues and professional coaches throughout my career. Um, so it's hard to pinpoint on anyone. Um, but what I'll say is there is, uh, there was one person who. I was having a bit of a tough time at the moment.

I was figuring out what do I wanna do with my life? I was figuring things out and things weren't out working what I wanted it to be, um, at work at that moment. And she told me something that I will [00:07:00] always carry with me and, um, I would hope to share, um, which is walk. Don't run to your next thing. Mm. And by that I don't mean necessarily like I'd be more metaphorically like the, sometimes you're like, oh, I'm, I'm struggling.

I don't like this. I'm gonna run. And the challenge with that mentality is you are running and you're thinking grass is greener on the other side. Okay. This is great. Okay. I got something. Go, go. Go. , but then you might have to run again. Um, and rather than thinking, should I leave or should I go, um, or I don't like the situation, I want something better.

Think about more where you want to be, what's important to you. Cuz it's a very personal decision and then walk towards that. It doesn't take necessarily more time, I'm not saying go slower, but be more intentional in where you want to do and where you want to. Um, that I have occasionally, uh, followed in my career.

Not [00:08:00] always, if I'm honest too, but every time I haven't followed it, I've been like, oh, I really should have listened to her. And then the times of which I did, of which I was like, oh, okay, this is something, okay, I wanna go there. I wanna do this. Um, have been, uh, just a great, uh, good experience as well for me.

So walk.

Isabel: When do you think is the right time to run then? Based on you saying that sometimes you made the right call and what you have been made the right call, what do you think are the factors there that you found resonates with you?

Jenn: Uh, it's. It's hard when you're in a situation and, and I talk to a lot of folks and myself included, of which you're in a situation of which you want something better or something isn't going right for you.

And at those times you can feel very stuck and there's a temptation to run. And oftentimes [00:09:00] there are cases of which you should really get out of there, , like if you like toxic environment or something, you should really get out. So I'm not saying just stay there, um, but I am saying think more about what you want to do as opposed to what you don't like about your current situation and go towards.

Um, kinda, it's, so, it's more of a switch and mentality of, okay, well what do I want? It's not about, oh, I don't like this. There's somebody there, oh, a peer, somebody else who's driving me crazy. Like, more where do you want in your career? And that's such a different mentality. I mean, growing up, I'll admit, I, this is one of the hardest things that I still struggle with is what do I.

As opposed to, oh Uhhuh, I need to do this, or I should do this, or that seems to be the logical progression. That question of what do you want is actually a very hard question, at least for myself. And like, well, what do you actually want to do with your life? [00:10:00] Because at the end of the day, the whole time your life and what do you want to do?

Um, and we do spend a lot of our times, um, working. It's a lot of our hours of day working, and so think more like, what do you want? Wow.

Isabel: I guess speaking of what you want, because you've now pivoted to a com, almost like a completely new type of product management about coaching, how are you thinking about coaching and how does that align with what

you.

Jenn: Yeah. Um, I mentioned earlier the, the best part, at least that I've always enjoyed in managing or mentoring or even just working has been helping people. I know that sounds a bit cliche. Um, But there's a lot of satisfaction and fulfillment with helping people and being like, I, I, I hear you. I'm, I'm there and I've been blessed with, uh, multiple mentors and [00:11:00] coaches and people in my life that have been there for me.

And so it's important for me to, to give back, to bring all of what I've learned in product management, in managing teams and working at startups and large companies like Google, and help people who sometimes may feel stuck or figuring out what do they want and to hear their own voice. Because a lot of times it's, it's sometimes hard to hear your own.

And you can't always tell your team like, oh, I don't know, . There's not things you can't always tell your team and you can't always tell your manager everything either depending upon the situation. Um, and so sometimes it helps to tell somebody who's also not your spouse, cuz that gets into a whole nother, like coming outta their challenges or your partner and even friends.

That's not necessarily fair for them either to talk to somebody about how you are thinking, what you are feeling, and to process that. . Um, and there's a lot of just joy and fulfillment [00:12:00] that I feel when there's that click. Um, and like, oh, okay. I get it. And that means a lot to me. .

Isabel: , I can already see, we had a little chat before our recording, and, and Jennifer honestly has just the kindest, most open, willing heart that I, I've seen in most product leaders.

So I can definitely attest to your willingness to wanna help people and see people and move them forward.

Jenn: Thank you. That's very sweet of you. ,

Isabel: of course. And I mean, now that you're coaching, who are you more focused on? Are you focused more on people breaking into product or are you focused more on the people that are executives or are product leaders?

Kind of where, where's your head at right now with, in terms of your target audience for, for.

Jenn: So I'm pretty open. Um, I mean the area that I have the most background in is certainly product management. I grew up in product management, starting ads and APM working my [00:13:00] way up. Um, but I also realize a lot of the situations that whether you're in engineering, in product, or no matter what function, especially as you go up the chain, um, have to do with.

They have to do with things, with your teams, things that you're trying to grapple with, figuring out the organization are people oriented. Um, and so that's where I think it helps the most to talk to somebody, um, and to figure out, okay, how do I manage these types of people situations? How can I navigate this organization?

How can I still be. But I'm seeing other people who are succeeding that I, I just don't know how to mimic. And these types of situations are, um, things of which I think I, I would love to work with people on.

Isabel: . And in general, I think with product management comes with a lot of. Resilience because you're dealing with different problems all the time in every single different situation you're [00:14:00] in, be it within the same organization or in a completely different organization because either you're solving different problem sets or you're within the same organization dealing with different stakeholder problems or, or organization, product pillar problems like infrastructure versus net new features that need to be built.

So I do know you have been a pretty big advocate for resilience in product management, and you mentioned quite a few different types of resilience. So I kind of wanna unpack that a little bit since you mentioned leadership as a whole. And I have kind of two to three points that you mentioned previously.

So, okay, you right now, From what I understand are a mother of four. Yes. That is pretty incredible. .

Jenn: I think I have my picture up here somewhere. .

Isabel: , they're so cute. I, and you told me before this interview that they range right from preschool all the way until preschool. [00:15:00] High

Jenn: school. Yay. How a bit of a range.

Isabel: It's a little bit, a little bit of a range. . , so you mentioned resilience with life lessons and you are killing it as a mother, killing it as a product coach, killing it. As a product leader, do you have any advice for women in product or women trying to break into product when it comes to resilience around life lessons?

Jenn: So for me, um, I'll admit what, uh, what my kids don't give me in time, they give me in perspective. And so that would be the thing that I, um, have, it's helpful to see things from a different perspective and to gyps be able to see. And I think oftentimes I see folks extremely brilliant, smart, hardworking.

But not everything always goes your way. And especially in product management, there's a lot of, uh, sorting through alignment, figuring [00:16:00] out and debating the roadmap, determining how to pivot and those challenges can require a lot of resilience to get through it. And I think the way to unlock that is to think about, well, you.

Kind of just having that perspective of this is life, these are people, we're all trying to figure things out. And that perspective, it gives you just a bigger picture. It's almost like zooming out and seeing, you know, It's okay. It's okay. And that calm then helps you get through whatever challenges you are going through.

Um, and so I personally, um, I'm a mom of four kids. Uh, I think each one has had its own challenges. Um, whether it's figuring out, uh, maternity leave and how much time I should take, when to tell people how should I plan [00:17:00] for it. Um, over zoom, it's less like apparent, but oftentimes in person it's pretty clear that you are pregnant.

That's a little bit different, or even the things that happen afterwards with childcare. My kids usually for the first year or two, are constantly sick when they're in daycare. And working through those challenges. Um, and the biggest advice I would have would be keep perspective. Know this is a moment you are resilient.

Um, and also give grace to yourself. Um, it's. It's okay. It's okay to not be like a super mama or a super person. People often ask me like, oh, how do you do it for kids? And I'm like, who says I'm doing it ? I'm figuring, I'm juggling. I'm doing my best. Um, and I'm trying to get as much help as I can too. Um, and so for the moms out there, I would say have grace for yourself.

Take care of yourself. You need to take care of [00:18:00] yourself. So, You can take care of others so that you can be there at work for your team or for your coworkers. Um, And for those who are not mothers yet, or who that may not be a choice for them, know that it is your choice and you can do it. Um, I often hear folks who are like, oh, maybe I have to make a choice between the two.

Um, and I'm not saying it's easy. I also don't think it's easy to stay home with poor kids either, . Um, so I maybe actually harder in some ways. But I do think, and I would love to dispel the notion that it's not. And that people, I can't have both a family, um, and a career. Um, yeah. Break that perception. .

Isabel: And when you mentioned perspective, do you think there has been anything given that shift in perspective of what work-life balance now means to you and how you want to see the rest of your team look at work-life [00:19:00] balance in, in a specific way?.

Jenn: So it's tricky with work-life balance. Um, I've heard all sorts of methods from like you, uh, it's only nine to five, and then from like six to eight you don't worry.

And then after the kids go to bed, all sorts of tips and tricks. Um, for me it's more about mindset. I mean, I will be the first to admit, there have been times of which I have been on my laptop, I have been on my phone with my kids. I am not like, I don't have a perfect rhythm, a perfect ritual, a perfect structured life.

It's actually quite chaotic, but it's more of the mindset of like, Being there for your kids, um, when they need it, of prioritizing yourself so that you can be your full self, um, not burning out. Cause that's very. Not easy, but it's, it's, um, it's a challenge, um, in many situations. Um, and so [00:20:00] having that perspective and the mindset to be kind to yourself as you would want to be kind to others, um, as well.

Isabel: Now that we're talking just in general about the people that are in the trenches of being a mother, how have you found that balance, especially as a leader, because it's almost like as a leader and a product leader, you have to be on call all the time. , how do you manage your stakeholders as well as the balance of drawing a line when it comes to that work at life?

Yeah. Balance, so to speak.

Jenn: So in some ways, uh, the emergence of remote work and Zoom work from home and the mixture of it brings a lot of these things more to the forefront. And I make it no secret that I got four kids, . Um, and this is, this is my life. Um, and, and this is where it's being [00:21:00] open and transparent.

Not trying to do it all, not trying to hide like it, and just being open to folks. People are people, and sharing with folks. Now, I realize this, it's easier said than done. I've often gotten advice that even like, oh, you shouldn't, you shouldn't tell people, um, or like, especially during an interview, don't mention

You are a mom of four kids. Or that you're expecting or how to have those difficult situ, like how to have those conversations and I get it. And there are times of which I have also been, it's very, it's hard to disclose some of these things at the same time, but for me it's also important, um, to, to be transparent.

And if it's not a good place for me, then, you know, it's not, it's not a good place. And to know that upfront. Um, so I make it no secret, um, to my team, to my stakeholders, to anybody of who I am, [00:22:00] um, what I'm doing at home. Um, and I try to be kind to myself with knowing my limits, making sure I don't burn out, because at the end of the day, if I burn out, I, I need to be there.

This is not a, you can crash and burn. You need to keep being there for your kids. Um, and so how can I work sustainably and how can I make sure to take care of myself so I can be present at work or at home? Um, and that's, and how can I just be transparent with people Yeah. About what I'm going through?

Isabel: And it's going back to your notion of walking and not running. I think whenever it comes to the job search, especially in unfortunately this market, there's an notion of I gotta jump to the first company that's gonna accept me, or the first company that's gonna just take me because. Obviously it is a very stressful time, um, be it if it's layoffs versus be it if someone's pivoting to a new career, and I'm speaking for my own experience too.

When I was looking [00:23:00] for a job too, it was very easy for me to cling onto the first one that that comes, but. What you're saying, and keep me honest if I'm misinterpreting it, is when we say walk, it's really checking in with yourself and saying, what are my needs? What are non-negotiables? Kind of like product?

What are non-negotiables and what are nice to haves, and how do I communicate those non-negotiables, so that's in the next role. They're going to support me as I continue to walk because my needs are met. Is that correct?

Jenn: Yes. No, I mean there's no perfect. , there's no ideal job, but there are your priorities and it's a personal decision and figuring out, well, what do you want?

And what's important to you? And I also will fully, uh, wanna recognize that there are sometimes timing constraints and challenges with folks. And so maybe one of your priorities is, Hey, I need to, I need to have a job now, um, or I need to pay the bills. Um, Perfectly valid and fine, like priority, but [00:24:00] whatever your situation may be, know what are your must haves, so to speak.

not imagine, and you're nice to haves. And then think through, well, how do I move towards that? Or how do I find a place that can. that can meet what I want. Um, and from a prioritization standpoint, um, cuz it's, it's tempting sometimes to think like, okay, I just, I gotta jump and this is what everybody else wants.

Okay. Oh, this is what, what I should be doing instead of what, what I want to do, um, and what I, what's important to me at this moment in my life..

Isabel: , what is your biggest advice for those, trying to even get into product management?

What do you think has worked for you and resonated with you that you want to share with others?

Jenn: Ah, well, that's a good question.

Product management. There are a ton of courses. There's [00:25:00] a ton of frameworks, many of which i, I don't know about even after working in Project Manager for a long time. Uh, there's a ton of how-to books, which are tremendously useful, but at the end of the day, it's thinking through, well, what does, what do you need to be able to get your team and your product in a better.

and thinking through, okay, well how do I get. And for every person that may be different. Maybe you need to convince a stakeholder. Well, there may not be a magic formula or framework to be able to do that. Maybe you need to sort things out between two conflicting teams. There's often not a magic formula to do that.

And so thinking through, well, how can you, what's the best way to get there for that particular situation? You have tools in your tool belt, that's great, but at the end of the day, how can I get there? How can I provide clarity for my team? [00:26:00] How can I drive things forward? How can I make a step function shift in the product and that.

Remembering the core of what you are doing and your role as opposed to the how of market research. Okay. Looking at like, doing the evaluations, these are more the how, but remember, like what is driving you to move things forward and how do you best get there with the skills, the connections, the folks, um, that, that you.

Isabel: Thanks for that. I, I think it's gonna be very valuable for people, especially if they're not in product specific careers and even product adjacent or com product opposite careers. It's just helping things get moved forward. Which, speaking of, in return to you, how can people reach out to you if they wanted to chat through more of these ideas or get your coaching of any sort?

How can, how can they reach out to.

Jenn: Well, [00:27:00] while I'm on LinkedIn, I'm just, Jennifer . Jennifer Liu. Feel free to connect, feel free to reach out. It's also, it's been great to reach out to you. It's just like a connection across the oceans, , um, and Zoom makes it easy nowadays to connect with people across continents, across different areas.

I'm always up for a chat, um, and to see if I can help. Um, and for me, this is, this is a second chapter for me, and it's a time of which I can. Really, in a way do what I want, um, which is to help people figure out what they want and how they can move forward with their lives too. I love it.

Isabel: Thank you so much for your time again, Jennifer.

I, I'm so sure people are gonna find value from this. So appreciate you, appreciate your work and , I will chat with you very soon.

Jenn: Okay. Thank you.

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